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	<title>Comments on: Music That Resists An Audience</title>
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	<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/</link>
	<description>ideas about music, and about playing, learning and teaching the piano, with unexpected extras</description>
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		<title>By: elissamilne</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1355</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[elissamilne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael, I applaud your robust and articulate commitment to your cause!

I&#039;m not sure that comparing the work of Susan McLary to phrenology is a sustainable discursive strategy, or that such a comparison is valid in the first place. The writing of histories really doesn&#039;t operate in the same way as medical research, so to say that &#039;research&#039; disputes McLary&#039;s writing is to assume her work is presented as fact rather than as a challenge to the dominant narratives of the 70s and 80s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I applaud your robust and articulate commitment to your cause!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that comparing the work of Susan McLary to phrenology is a sustainable discursive strategy, or that such a comparison is valid in the first place. The writing of histories really doesn&#8217;t operate in the same way as medical research, so to say that &#8216;research&#8217; disputes McLary&#8217;s writing is to assume her work is presented as fact rather than as a challenge to the dominant narratives of the 70s and 80s.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There has been plenty of research since that time significantly promlematizing McClary&#039;s article. For example: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36533412/The-Myth-of-Serial-Tyranny-in-the-1950s-and-1960s-J-Straus
And this article, too, has provoked further discussion...
To continue these ideas is like continuing to insist that phrenology offers useful information about behaviour. It simply parades out of date ideas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been plenty of research since that time significantly promlematizing McClary&#8217;s article. For example: <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/36533412/The-Myth-of-Serial-Tyranny-in-the-1950s-and-1960s-J-Straus" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/36533412/The-Myth-of-Serial-Tyranny-in-the-1950s-and-1960s-J-Straus</a><br />
And this article, too, has provoked further discussion&#8230;<br />
To continue these ideas is like continuing to insist that phrenology offers useful information about behaviour. It simply parades out of date ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Recent Favs &#171; Piano Addict</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Recent Favs &#171; Piano Addict]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 19:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Elissa Milne [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Elissa Milne [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Steinmetz</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Steinmetz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 06:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A colleague posted links to your essay and followup, and I love them both. Thank you!

Susan McClary&#039;s wonderful article &quot;Terminal Prestige&quot; explains new music&#039;s resistance (I like your way of putting it) to the audience. She says that for American composers after World War II, prestige depended on writing music that an ordinary person couldn&#039;t understand. There was a time when a composer couldn&#039;t get a teaching job without writing serial music. This connection between &quot;difficulty&quot; and prestige is no longer dominant (look at how popular and prestigious Glass, Reich, and Adams are), but it casts a long shadow over the field.

Thank goodness lots of musicians have escaped the shadow. I like your description of the way forward.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A colleague posted links to your essay and followup, and I love them both. Thank you!</p>
<p>Susan McClary&#8217;s wonderful article &#8220;Terminal Prestige&#8221; explains new music&#8217;s resistance (I like your way of putting it) to the audience. She says that for American composers after World War II, prestige depended on writing music that an ordinary person couldn&#8217;t understand. There was a time when a composer couldn&#8217;t get a teaching job without writing serial music. This connection between &#8220;difficulty&#8221; and prestige is no longer dominant (look at how popular and prestigious Glass, Reich, and Adams are), but it casts a long shadow over the field.</p>
<p>Thank goodness lots of musicians have escaped the shadow. I like your description of the way forward.</p>
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		<title>By: fireandair</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fireandair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 06:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;And new music concerts do their level best to make the bodies disappear.&quot;

I haven&#039;t bothered to keep count of the number of young avant garde composers/students who have proudly proclaimed, &quot;Singers hate me!&quot; when they talk about their music.  I often think that the tendency to hostility toward singers both in contemporary classical music circles and related genres (70s progressive rock comes to mind back when they shared the &quot;who cares if you listen&quot; attitude) are related to their hostility toward the body.  A singer&#039;s instrument is after all, their body.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And new music concerts do their level best to make the bodies disappear.&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t bothered to keep count of the number of young avant garde composers/students who have proudly proclaimed, &#8220;Singers hate me!&#8221; when they talk about their music.  I often think that the tendency to hostility toward singers both in contemporary classical music circles and related genres (70s progressive rock comes to mind back when they shared the &#8220;who cares if you listen&#8221; attitude) are related to their hostility toward the body.  A singer&#8217;s instrument is after all, their body.</p>
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		<title>By: Krzysztof Penderecki and Jonny Greenwood Collaborate &#124; Music Of Our Heart</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1195</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Krzysztof Penderecki and Jonny Greenwood Collaborate &#124; Music Of Our Heart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2012 13:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1195</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Music That Resists An Audience (elissamilne.wordpress.com) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Music That Resists An Audience (elissamilne.wordpress.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: elissamilne</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[elissamilne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 01:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Michael, you make me smile (&quot;crunch, crunch, crunch&quot;)! 

A couple of quick points:

*My* favourite kind of contemporary dance is work that is polyphonic (possibly more accurately, fugal) in its construction, and usually in ways that is not at all mimetic as regards the music (or really anything else) - more like a counterpoint of bodies. The dance doesn&#039;t have to be *about* the music to be acting as a frame or illustration and so forth. And I would never consider that a single choreography was anything like the only possible framing of a work! Mimetic choreography, in my opinion, is the epitome of tedium.  On a related note, I think your ideas and mine about illustration might have nuanced differences in this regard (good illustration does stuff that the text does not demand or reveal - again, in my opinion).

The lack of eye contact I was describing in the blog was the failure of the performers to look at *each other*. The fourth wall can be just as effective in a music performance as in a theatre performance. But if there&#039;s no musical reason for the performers to *avoid* eye contact then it&#039;s just weird (and, in fact, will tend to communicate social dislocation). In most new music concerts the performers have given absolutely no thought to physical considerations other than those relevant to sound production; if their performance is austere or flamboyant it&#039;s more likely than not an accident of personality or time of day.

And regarding ontological privilege: I&#039;d like to see an instrument play itself. No, wait, I didn&#039;t mean I&#039;d *really* like to see an instrument play itself... Um, well.... ;-)

But yes, this does come down to philosophy. Music is a way of being human, not a way of escaping being human. Disagree with this proposition and you&#039;ll probably be wanting translucence in your instrumentalists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, you make me smile (&#8220;crunch, crunch, crunch&#8221;)! </p>
<p>A couple of quick points:</p>
<p>*My* favourite kind of contemporary dance is work that is polyphonic (possibly more accurately, fugal) in its construction, and usually in ways that is not at all mimetic as regards the music (or really anything else) &#8211; more like a counterpoint of bodies. The dance doesn&#8217;t have to be *about* the music to be acting as a frame or illustration and so forth. And I would never consider that a single choreography was anything like the only possible framing of a work! Mimetic choreography, in my opinion, is the epitome of tedium.  On a related note, I think your ideas and mine about illustration might have nuanced differences in this regard (good illustration does stuff that the text does not demand or reveal &#8211; again, in my opinion).</p>
<p>The lack of eye contact I was describing in the blog was the failure of the performers to look at *each other*. The fourth wall can be just as effective in a music performance as in a theatre performance. But if there&#8217;s no musical reason for the performers to *avoid* eye contact then it&#8217;s just weird (and, in fact, will tend to communicate social dislocation). In most new music concerts the performers have given absolutely no thought to physical considerations other than those relevant to sound production; if their performance is austere or flamboyant it&#8217;s more likely than not an accident of personality or time of day.</p>
<p>And regarding ontological privilege: I&#8217;d like to see an instrument play itself. No, wait, I didn&#8217;t mean I&#8217;d *really* like to see an instrument play itself&#8230; Um, well&#8230;. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But yes, this does come down to philosophy. Music is a way of being human, not a way of escaping being human. Disagree with this proposition and you&#8217;ll probably be wanting translucence in your instrumentalists.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1096</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 00:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/?p=1567#comment-1096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;The music is fundamental to the aesthetic experience at a contemporary dance event, but the dance frames, explains, illustrates and animates even the most complex compositional experience. And damn it, bodies are involved.&#039;
This piqued my interest. The last dance event I went to (Rambert) had a big, young and noisy audience. They munched their way through the performance. (How can you listen to the music whilst eating? Crunch crunch crunch) And although I could go on about the way that they talked through the music until the dance started (including some terrific music by David Tudor), that was clearly my issue and more or less my issue alone, since the audience&#039;s talking didn&#039;t seem to bother others in the audience.
It&#039;s the idea that dance might explain or illustrate that gets me thinking. For sure this is the point of some dance. For me, it&#039;s the least interesting dance. The performance I enjoyed most was the Tudor/Cunningham effort: the music and the dance seemed to stand on their own, and because of that the coming together was especially remarkable. There&#039;s lots of music that works like that, and lots of dance, staging, acting and so on... Why should music need explaining in non-musical terms?
Yet the mimesis that illustrative dance aims for does seem to be more popular. And sometimes that&#039;s fine. But what about art that&#039;s not mimetic? What do we do with that?

As for bodies, just because musicians are focussed on performing doesn&#039;t mean they one need enter a discourse of the denial of bodily presence (they body&#039;s still there, right?). One of the most riveting performances I have been to was one where the performers was completely focussed - and as it happens focussed on their printed parts - and gave the most intense performance of a 30 minute soprano+ensemble work. No audience eye contact. Everything was going into making an amazing sound, and crafting wonderful phrases etc... And that focus was incredibly exciting. (It was also finely honed and incredibly well rehearsed!) The radio broadcast lacked much of the excitement, because I couldn&#039;t see the performers so engrossed in what they were doing.
But I&#039;ve also experienced concerts were the performer tries to be as unobtrusive as possible, just there, playing what&#039;s necessary, austere and bare. And that can also be a joy, since sometimes that&#039;s all that&#039;s needed. No histrionics, no trying to connect, just some sound. That&#039;s how I want my Kondo, for example.

What I&#039;m trying to get at is that I&#039;m all for the approach that you favour, but not all the time. Sometimes it&#039;s not appropriate. Sometimes a performer being illustrative, or talking to an audience seems wrong, distracting, and unnecessary. Sometimes it&#039;s at odds with why the composition was written, and what the composition tries to do. Sometimes I just want my performers to get on with it; sometimes performers are really bad at speaking to an audience, and incredibly persuasive with their instrument/voice. And my questions are: what happens with them? How do they get an audience? (If I were feeling philosophically frisky, I&#039;d ask about the ontological privileging of the performer over their &#039;instrument&#039; and wonder how &#039;instrumental&#039; instruments really are, and I might wonder what that means for a singer, for example.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;The music is fundamental to the aesthetic experience at a contemporary dance event, but the dance frames, explains, illustrates and animates even the most complex compositional experience. And damn it, bodies are involved.&#8217;<br />
This piqued my interest. The last dance event I went to (Rambert) had a big, young and noisy audience. They munched their way through the performance. (How can you listen to the music whilst eating? Crunch crunch crunch) And although I could go on about the way that they talked through the music until the dance started (including some terrific music by David Tudor), that was clearly my issue and more or less my issue alone, since the audience&#8217;s talking didn&#8217;t seem to bother others in the audience.<br />
It&#8217;s the idea that dance might explain or illustrate that gets me thinking. For sure this is the point of some dance. For me, it&#8217;s the least interesting dance. The performance I enjoyed most was the Tudor/Cunningham effort: the music and the dance seemed to stand on their own, and because of that the coming together was especially remarkable. There&#8217;s lots of music that works like that, and lots of dance, staging, acting and so on&#8230; Why should music need explaining in non-musical terms?<br />
Yet the mimesis that illustrative dance aims for does seem to be more popular. And sometimes that&#8217;s fine. But what about art that&#8217;s not mimetic? What do we do with that?</p>
<p>As for bodies, just because musicians are focussed on performing doesn&#8217;t mean they one need enter a discourse of the denial of bodily presence (they body&#8217;s still there, right?). One of the most riveting performances I have been to was one where the performers was completely focussed &#8211; and as it happens focussed on their printed parts &#8211; and gave the most intense performance of a 30 minute soprano+ensemble work. No audience eye contact. Everything was going into making an amazing sound, and crafting wonderful phrases etc&#8230; And that focus was incredibly exciting. (It was also finely honed and incredibly well rehearsed!) The radio broadcast lacked much of the excitement, because I couldn&#8217;t see the performers so engrossed in what they were doing.<br />
But I&#8217;ve also experienced concerts were the performer tries to be as unobtrusive as possible, just there, playing what&#8217;s necessary, austere and bare. And that can also be a joy, since sometimes that&#8217;s all that&#8217;s needed. No histrionics, no trying to connect, just some sound. That&#8217;s how I want my Kondo, for example.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m trying to get at is that I&#8217;m all for the approach that you favour, but not all the time. Sometimes it&#8217;s not appropriate. Sometimes a performer being illustrative, or talking to an audience seems wrong, distracting, and unnecessary. Sometimes it&#8217;s at odds with why the composition was written, and what the composition tries to do. Sometimes I just want my performers to get on with it; sometimes performers are really bad at speaking to an audience, and incredibly persuasive with their instrument/voice. And my questions are: what happens with them? How do they get an audience? (If I were feeling philosophically frisky, I&#8217;d ask about the ontological privileging of the performer over their &#8216;instrument&#8217; and wonder how &#8216;instrumental&#8217; instruments really are, and I might wonder what that means for a singer, for example.)</p>
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		<title>By: avatele</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[avatele]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Connection between the listeners and the artist! Who knew it makes such a difference xx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Connection between the listeners and the artist! Who knew it makes such a difference xx</p>
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		<title>By: Charmaine Siagian</title>
		<link>http://elissamilne.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-music-that-resists-an-audience/#comment-1084</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charmaine Siagian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 23:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I did not know that about Penderecki&#039;s Threnody! Thank you for your intelligent, amusing critique about new music - enjoyed both these posts tremendously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not know that about Penderecki&#8217;s Threnody! Thank you for your intelligent, amusing critique about new music &#8211; enjoyed both these posts tremendously.</p>
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